Snagged from The Hooded Utilitarian, Ats, S5 screen shot.
* Becka H. – Hold up: Angel and Nina have sex, right? How is that possible again? Is it because he doesn’t love her? I’m trying to make a point that he only engages even in loveless sex when under duress in some way (the curse = Eve, straight up not giving a fuck = Darla). But… Nina!
* Jill McKenna Reed – I believe yes they do. At least there seems to be an “after” scene of them in bed. Yes, doesn’t love her. No true love. Like him and Eve. Nina is a poor man’s Buffy!!
* Becka H. – Nina sux, I kind of want to pretend she doesn’t exist in this essay. Because I’m trying to show how he kinds of trains himself into this asexual mode as a sort of restrictive safeguard against soul loss. And how he doesn’t date or have sex with people even when he doesn’t love them, because he takes his asceticism to such annoying extremes (this is also like how he extends the “true happiness” thing to be a reasoning for why he doesn’t get close to people in a platonic way either, etc.). At least with Darla and Eve there are explanations for his risky behavior, but Nina fucks it up.
* Jill McKenna Reed – Arguably, the move to WR&H empowers him somehow and makes him arrogant and cocky. I think he feels “entitled” to some spoils. He gets loose and messy. This is also when he gets shunned by Andrew and Giles as no longer being “good.” And really, Giles/Andrew/Buffy are right. AI can’t be as long as they are associated with WR&H.
* Becka H. – Oh yeah, I forgot about the whole scene with Andrew taking the slayers. I think you are right but I’m struggling because getting into the moral complications of WRH kind of derails things… it’s a rabbit hole I don’t think I can travel down with the scope I have. Maybe I will just leave Nina out (of my work). EVERYTHING AFTER CONNOR = RUINING MY LIFE
* Jill McKenna Reed – The way the show ends up, and the move to WR&H, in a lot of ways exhibits *that* Angel… The Angel that has a soul, but sits there and throws his smoking cigarette into the pool of gasoline that lights up Darla and Drusilla. He’s not a white hat, he’s not a black hat, but he sure as hell is a dark-shade of grey.
* Jill McKenna Reed – And season 8 (graphic novels) furthers that to some degree. Angel isn’t “good”. He sometimes is for a while (and Buffy motivates most of that), but he’s happy to get dirty (for fun and power partly) if he can do some mental gymnastics to justify it enough.
* Becka H. – IA. I think it’s really important just how straight up EVIL he is as Angelus (and beyond that, how generally shitty he was as a human). He’s not just a normal vampire when he’s bad… he’s really, really bad. I cited Spike when making that distinction. I think that’s why he takes such extreme steps in keeping his soul, because he worries that any small temptation will bring that back. And I do think it’s important that in moving to WRH, he’s giving up on some of that extremity, and look what happens.
* Jill McKenna Reed – I think his natural state is grey. We see that when he first sees/meets Buffy. She motivates him out of his previous ways of being, which weren’t good. All those years he had a soul, he didn’t do anything good for anyone, he just flogged himself and ate rats in alleys.
* Becka H. – Yeah exactly. It’s almost like… the chance for human recognition is what gets him out of his self indulgent homeless life (“You could become a person, someone to be counted,” etc.) and idk. Maybe when Connor comes into the picture and he feels like he has this family at AI and then the WRH thing happens, it’s like he’s getting too big for his britches and thinks he’s achieved that human status (even though he never really can).
* Jill McKenna Reed – Yes. And it always makes me wonder how much his subconscious “lets” his “family” die off… Fred…Cordy…Wesley… He can’t keep it up past a few years. He slinks back to his natural state.
* Becka H. – It’s very strange because he’s like… the word I use is asymptotic, to the normative sphere. So he like lets himself get within reach but always kind of knows that he can’t have what’s there. It’s infuriating the way it plays out but I kinda feel for him. Whistler warns him about it early on (the more you live in this world the more you see how apart from it you really are) but I feel like he has to learn it the hard way on several occasions.
* Jill McKenna Reed – I think he subscribes to it tho’, and wraps it around him, much the way that Buffy sees her friends as a burden, often. Angel believes nothing is for him so he lets everything “go away,” even people that he loves and could potentially save.
* Becka H. – I definitely agree that he subscribes to it
* Jill McKenna Reed – He figures he will lose everyone anyway, so what does it matter that much if it is sooner or later. (And this is why I often see Angel as namby-pamby, QQ, “poor me,” even though he is usually fostering it.)
(What I didn’t say to Becka H. and should have… I LOVE her point about Spike/Angelus… one is bad and one is *really, really* bad.
Spike’s scene in the church after gaining a soul, draped on the cross, burning and crying, shows that he has a wish to be rectified to God (‘We were young (innocent) once too…’). Angelus/Angel does not even broach the topic. The closest he gets is giving a watch to the PTB (Powers That Be). He doesn’t feel as if he could ever be/should ever be forgiven. But the pain of that fact doesn’t stop Spike from wanting. And that leads to my very long-believed/held/conceptualized & very deeply rooted essay on why Spike’s love is more righteous than Angel’s.
One gets the idea that Spike won’t rest until he finds a peace with God (however Whedon interprets God, arguably Christian), any kind of peace. Angel on the other hand won’t let the redeemer/God do his/her work because he cannot get over himself enough. His pride and self-punishment always require more (addiction)… and this backs DIRECTLY into Heathcliff/Cathy/Wuthering Heights… Oh man. I need some wine…)
In conclusion, I wish I could go back to the days before I searched Spike/Angel Google images… sigh…